I believe we shouldn't just focus on boylove and should be a place where all Minor Attracted Adults, Minor's and our Ally's can meet to worship. We are excluded from mainstream places of worship but we shouldn't exclude anyone here who face the very same challenges with the only difference being gender.
Church Expansion Expanding our focus from just boylove to Childlove in general
#2
Posted 03 October 2011 - 12:39 PM
We would never exclude someone on the basis of being GL, and conscientious people of all orientations are welcome.
You in particular are welcome, and thanks very much for the comment.
My answer has to be personal rather than something said on behalf of the church. Personally, I don't feel I have a calling to an all-CL ministry - I know relatively little about GL, but my main disqualification is that, by chance, I haven't had much personal interaction with young girls in my life. Therefore, I don't feel qualified to speak in any depth about topics related to them. If I say something about GL and am attacked, as I will be, I don't have the wealth of knowledge I'd need to defend myself or our church.
I haven't had any sense from Cat that he feels personally called to take this topic on, either.
The Lord needs to call someone qualified to this specialized ministry, and probably has done so or is doing so.
You in particular are welcome, and thanks very much for the comment.
My answer has to be personal rather than something said on behalf of the church. Personally, I don't feel I have a calling to an all-CL ministry - I know relatively little about GL, but my main disqualification is that, by chance, I haven't had much personal interaction with young girls in my life. Therefore, I don't feel qualified to speak in any depth about topics related to them. If I say something about GL and am attacked, as I will be, I don't have the wealth of knowledge I'd need to defend myself or our church.
I haven't had any sense from Cat that he feels personally called to take this topic on, either.
The Lord needs to call someone qualified to this specialized ministry, and probably has done so or is doing so.
#4
Posted 03 October 2011 - 03:48 PM
No, I don't mind at all.
That invitation is completely consistent with our statements about our purposes and scope:
That invitation is completely consistent with our statements about our purposes and scope:
Quote
We are a friendly, relatively small group of people from around the world who mostly share Christian faith and mostly share a sexual orientation that includes attraction to males from age groups under 18. (This does not mean that we attempt to act on these attractions, but we do recognize that we experience them and must deal with them.) For some of us, this is part of a wider spectrum of sexual attractions, and we may be in heterosexual or homosexual relationships with adults. Our own ages range from teen to senior.
Christian churches are always in principle open to everyone, and so is ours. We explain our focus by saying we have a special mission to the community of boylovers and their friends, partners, and supporters.
Christian churches are always in principle open to everyone, and so is ours. We explain our focus by saying we have a special mission to the community of boylovers and their friends, partners, and supporters.
#5
Posted 04 October 2011 - 01:34 AM
For the same reason that Christiaan stated, I think the primary focus of this church will be on boylove... however, I would like to think childlove and girllove topics would be very welcome and relevant here... especially as they relate to Christianity.
I would hope any GL or CL would feel welcome to come and worship with us and welcome to post threads relevant to their issues.
Blessings
Cat.
I would hope any GL or CL would feel welcome to come and worship with us and welcome to post threads relevant to their issues.
Blessings
Cat.
#8
Posted 05 October 2011 - 10:05 AM
I take your point about there being a special focus but I have just typed "Christian Girl love groups" into Google and found nothing. I don't think that we should leave our GL brothers to be isolated. I can see that they will have to develop a focus unique from BL. I can see the theological point that you are seeking to make through this site, that we can acquire wisdom from Jesus the boy as well as Jesus the man. I wonder if the life of a GL is fundamentally different to a BL. Upto now I have tried to listen respectfully to whatever others want to tell me without passing judgement. I am going to think about this a bit more and get back to you.
#9
Posted 05 October 2011 - 06:20 PM
The main theological point I'd like to make through this site is that God loves conscientious members of sexual minorities the way they are.
That includes those attracted to minor girls, but from the practical standpoint, I'm to a large extent unqualified to defend their legitimate interests, question their possible errors, or counsel them in their GL-specific problems. Also, you have to bear in mind that violent people who express their anger through manufacturing violated, innocent proxies are fanatically drawn to the imagined scenario of sex with little girls. Dealing with GL will significantly turn up the heat of violence and hysteria directed at this website. That's fine from a Christian point of view, since the righteous must always be defended, but then it would really help if there were someone present who had a strong, God-given gift for answering GL-directed violence and hysteria from a well-informed, loving, but also tactically adept Christian standpoint. I am not that person. Neither are you, Adam. Find us that person, and we have a strong starting point. Otherwise, we may receive more artillery fire than we can readily deal with. This is a dangerous mission and all new organization needs to be well bulwarked.
That includes those attracted to minor girls, but from the practical standpoint, I'm to a large extent unqualified to defend their legitimate interests, question their possible errors, or counsel them in their GL-specific problems. Also, you have to bear in mind that violent people who express their anger through manufacturing violated, innocent proxies are fanatically drawn to the imagined scenario of sex with little girls. Dealing with GL will significantly turn up the heat of violence and hysteria directed at this website. That's fine from a Christian point of view, since the righteous must always be defended, but then it would really help if there were someone present who had a strong, God-given gift for answering GL-directed violence and hysteria from a well-informed, loving, but also tactically adept Christian standpoint. I am not that person. Neither are you, Adam. Find us that person, and we have a strong starting point. Otherwise, we may receive more artillery fire than we can readily deal with. This is a dangerous mission and all new organization needs to be well bulwarked.
#10
Posted 05 October 2011 - 07:59 PM
Do you mind if I get advice from GLs, perhaps Lindsay Ashford if I am able to contact him?
Whilst I am on-line, I should like to mention my prayers. When I pray I try to start off with the world's problems, i.e. famine, war, environmental degradation, world-wide recession, unemployment etc. At first, the world's problems seem complex and it is tempting to feel small. But on reflection, I think that the world's problems are very simple. Because people dislike themselves, they abuse themselves, then they abuse others and then they abuse the environment. It really can be summed up by two rules; to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbour as yourself.
Whilst I am on-line, I should like to mention my prayers. When I pray I try to start off with the world's problems, i.e. famine, war, environmental degradation, world-wide recession, unemployment etc. At first, the world's problems seem complex and it is tempting to feel small. But on reflection, I think that the world's problems are very simple. Because people dislike themselves, they abuse themselves, then they abuse others and then they abuse the environment. It really can be summed up by two rules; to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbour as yourself.
#12
Posted 06 October 2011 - 09:23 AM
JMA, on 06 October 2011 - 12:20 AM, said:
You know, my research indicates that BL and GL are theoretically parallel but quite different in practice. But perhaps I'm splitting hairs.
Good to see you back, JMA. I hope that you are feeling well. Please will you tell me more about your research? I might not be knowledgeable about GL but I am open to learning.
#13
Posted 06 October 2011 - 01:24 PM
adamjohn, on 05 October 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:
Do you mind if I get advice from GLs, perhaps Lindsay Ashford if I am able to contact him?
I'm not familiar with the person you mention, but I see there is plenty of internet vigilante flotsam about him that one could wade through.
If you find him truly to be of good character and judgment I don't mind if you consult with him.
#14
Posted 06 October 2011 - 11:35 PM
Thanks, Adamjohn. I'm doing my best to behave and follow the doctor's orders to the letter (some hope!).
Like I said, I may be splitting hairs. But my attention was once drawn to this matter by an interesting observation. Paedophilia is often confused with incest, which is inaccurate. Available statistics indicate that paedophilia is mainly male-male and BL, and incest is mainly male-female and GL-orientated.
Of course, it is not always thus. In many cases, for example, female-female GL is not incest, but a less common variant of paedophilia. And one should consider, above all, what both the adult and the minor feel, and only then how they express their affection.
The famous (and controversial) Rind, Tromovitch and Bauserman meta-analysis showed that boys' reactions are different from girls' reactions, which is natural. Equality is hard to find in nature.
This subject would of course be more than enough for a voluminous dissertation. Quoting current literature would be mildly boring. But you get the idea.
Perhaps one day, when I'm feeling better, I will write a paper on this, who knows? No, it's not a threat! ;)/>
Like I said, I may be splitting hairs. But my attention was once drawn to this matter by an interesting observation. Paedophilia is often confused with incest, which is inaccurate. Available statistics indicate that paedophilia is mainly male-male and BL, and incest is mainly male-female and GL-orientated.
Of course, it is not always thus. In many cases, for example, female-female GL is not incest, but a less common variant of paedophilia. And one should consider, above all, what both the adult and the minor feel, and only then how they express their affection.
The famous (and controversial) Rind, Tromovitch and Bauserman meta-analysis showed that boys' reactions are different from girls' reactions, which is natural. Equality is hard to find in nature.
This subject would of course be more than enough for a voluminous dissertation. Quoting current literature would be mildly boring. But you get the idea.
Perhaps one day, when I'm feeling better, I will write a paper on this, who knows? No, it's not a threat! ;)/>
#15
Posted 07 October 2011 - 09:23 AM
Thank you for enlightening me JMA. If I had really thought about it, I would have realised the connection with incest. In all fairness, most victims of child sexual abuse are female and most of it takes place in families and sadly, this has got confused with broader issues about minor attraction. Still, I wouldn't want Christian GLs to be isolated. "Alice in Wonderland" afterall was written by a clergyman.
I haven't been able to make contact with Lindsay Ashford. Perhaps this is no bad thing because whatever personal qualities he may have, keeping a low profile isn't one of them. I think we need to consult a wise old stick who doesn't draw too much attention to themselves. We may have to wait for the person to come to us.
Christiaan, I can see that GLs may be easier to accommodate as a group than as individuals. They will be able to support each other with specifically GL-related issues and there could be cross-fertilisation as and when it is helpful for that to happen.
I haven't been able to make contact with Lindsay Ashford. Perhaps this is no bad thing because whatever personal qualities he may have, keeping a low profile isn't one of them. I think we need to consult a wise old stick who doesn't draw too much attention to themselves. We may have to wait for the person to come to us.
Christiaan, I can see that GLs may be easier to accommodate as a group than as individuals. They will be able to support each other with specifically GL-related issues and there could be cross-fertilisation as and when it is helpful for that to happen.
#17
Posted 07 October 2011 - 07:12 PM
JMA, on 06 October 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:
Thanks, Adamjohn. I'm doing my best to behave and follow the doctor's orders to the letter (some hope!).
Thank God for that!
JMA, on 06 October 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:
The famous (and controversial) Rind, Tromovitch and Bauserman meta-analysis showed that boys' reactions are different from girls' reactions, which is natural. Equality is hard to find in nature.
One item I'd like to read is a well written book on is how women express anger. Some sources suggest that aggrieved women are more likely than men to claim victimization and to express fury masked as anguish, or even to develop vague medical complaints as a tacit accusation that the antagonist is causing them unbearable stress. Dealing with the topic of sexual abuse of teenaged boys, you tend not to have to deal with the aggressive use of displays of victimhood - guys who claim to feel victimized are either representing their feelings (whether native or culturally influenced) with painful accuracy or, in a few modern cases, laying them on fraudulently to collect the large amounts of money offered for unevidenced victim claims. Anger tends to manifest as open anger, even where historical sexual abuse is being discussed. When general fury is expressed as pumped-up displays of victimhood, as one sometimes sees when a couple of women are not getting along together in a workplace (leading to long stress leaves, etc.), this produces a type of situation that's very hard to deal with. Delving into GL topics gets you into the thick of female victim politics, and my feeling is that only someone who has intensively studied that topic is going to be able to handle the flak. When someone is angry, the problem is much easier to deal with if they punch their antagonist in the face or call him a bastard than if they fall down weeping in front of their friends (or lawyers) and claim the person destroyed their health forever through stress.
Male-female politics is, if nothing else, a specialty in its own right. The complexity of getting into GL affairs can't be underestimated.
#19
Posted 08 October 2011 - 11:51 AM
Christiaan,
I take your point about the complexity of GL matters but I am not sure that BLs can make any political progress without understanding GL matters. For example, if I were to campaign for the age of consent to be lowered to 14 in the UK I have to campaign for both sexes and for both heterosexual and homosexual persons. I cannot campaign to lower the age of consent to 14 just when it involves two males. The general public would never buy it because it would discriminatory in their perception. Perhaps you have no interest in the political side of our movement. If so, I see that as an entirely valid position because you do a fantastic job in running this site but there are those of us who want to make political progress and I feel unable to do that without greater access to GLs.
Having said all that I am not completely comfortable with politics as a career. Politics is concerned with the acquisition of power, which I see as fundamentally unchristian, because power can be addictive with the effect that politicians ofter become self-obsessed. They lose sight of the people they are elected to serve.
I take your point about the complexity of GL matters but I am not sure that BLs can make any political progress without understanding GL matters. For example, if I were to campaign for the age of consent to be lowered to 14 in the UK I have to campaign for both sexes and for both heterosexual and homosexual persons. I cannot campaign to lower the age of consent to 14 just when it involves two males. The general public would never buy it because it would discriminatory in their perception. Perhaps you have no interest in the political side of our movement. If so, I see that as an entirely valid position because you do a fantastic job in running this site but there are those of us who want to make political progress and I feel unable to do that without greater access to GLs.
Having said all that I am not completely comfortable with politics as a career. Politics is concerned with the acquisition of power, which I see as fundamentally unchristian, because power can be addictive with the effect that politicians ofter become self-obsessed. They lose sight of the people they are elected to serve.
#20
Posted 08 October 2011 - 01:10 PM
Touché and ouch, Adam, and also big thanks. You're right - when it comes to discussions of the age of consent, issues related to boys tend to get completely steamrollered by the omnipresent dread of underaged female prostitution. I looked into the discussions that happened when Canada raised its age of consent from 14 to 16 and it was essentially all about girls. The opposition of the LGBT group Egale, which knew full well that the new legal change would just turn the natural impulses of myriads of 14 year old boys into criminal thoughts, were ignored utterly. All three major political parties brushed them off.
As I've said before, I think a Christian church is more about ages of marriage than ages of consent. It isn't in my theology to judge that youthful non-marital experimentation is sinful per se, but I feel more politically involved when loving relationships are being destroyed than when permissions for random intergenerational sex acts are being discussed.
As I've said before, I think a Christian church is more about ages of marriage than ages of consent. It isn't in my theology to judge that youthful non-marital experimentation is sinful per se, but I feel more politically involved when loving relationships are being destroyed than when permissions for random intergenerational sex acts are being discussed.